Vampires & Undead in Fantasy Warriors

[Belg]

Hi,
we are reviewing the Army of Vampires & Undead, for the new 2018 edition.

We had considered the Vampires to be the same as the Undead, so they were activated by the power of the Necromancers, but only by day.

I was considering that Vampires are in fact living creatures, only they feed on blood. In literary tradition they are not "evoked" by magic. They die if exposed to sunlight, so to use them in battle we had to find a trick. The trick was that with necromantic power they are immune to the effects of sunlight.

What do you think about this ?

According to you, the Vampires must they be "evoked", that is "activated", by the Necromancers, at least during the day, or not?

[Katie]

In legend, vampires are not actually destroyed by sunlight. They're just never seen in sunlight -- when their coffins are dug up, the body is (unsurprisingly) inside it. Possibly preserved by the conditions, it looks fresh although internal decay may have pushed blood into the mouth. Hence, they aren't dead, eat blood and are clearly only running about at night.

They also, in myth, don't cast a shadow OR a reflection. Why? Because they're only partially substantial. Why? Because otherwise the grave would look disturbed if they had to actually physically leave it.

The first time destruction by daylight is mentioned is in the script for "Nosferatu" (1922) and it's thought this was one of several ways to try and make their vampire legally distinct from the one in "Dracula" (Who can definitely wander about in the daytime although his full powers only appear in the dark). It didn't work, they ended up embroiled in legal action and all prints were supposed to be destroyed but one of them made it to the United States where "Dracula" was considered public domain. It appears someone at Universal saw a print of "Nosferatu" and added the concept to the plot of "Dracula" (1931).

[Belg]

Dec 1, 2018 19:14:53 GMT Katie said:

In legend, vampires are not actually destroyed by sunlight. They're just never seen in sunlight -- when their coffins are dug up, the body is (unsurprisingly) inside it. Possibly preserved by the conditions, it looks fresh although internal decay may have pushed blood into the mouth. Hence, they aren't dead, eat blood and are clearly only running about at night.

They also, in myth, don't cast a shadow OR a reflection. Why? Because they're only partially substantial. Why? Because otherwise the grave would look disturbed if they had to actually physically leave it.

The first time destruction by daylight is mentioned is in the script for "Nosferatu" (1922) and it's thought this was one of several ways to try and make their vampire legally distinct from the one in "Dracula" (Who can definitely wander about in the daytime although his full powers only appear in the dark). It didn't work, they ended up embroiled in legal action and all prints were supposed to be destroyed but one of them made it to the United States where "Dracula" was considered public domain. It appears someone at Universal saw a print of "Nosferatu" and added the concept to the plot of "Dracula" (1931).

Thank you very much for your intervention, really very interesting.
For Naran Vampires, we relied mainly on the "Underworld" and "Blade" series of films, and others ("Vampires" by John Carpenter) where we see that the Vampires are burned by the sun.
So you would do that Vampires can operate even during the day? Normally, without any penalty?

[Katie]

During the day, old-myth vampires should be human, possibly frailer. At night they can move quickly -- and have fast reflexes. They do need access to their coffins though -- this is referred to in "Dracula" [Stoker, 1897]. It's not clear whether they're *required* to sleep in them or if it's a habit or regenerative.

So they could be human with res of +1 (their frailty) during the day, suffer bad light during the day. At night, they move 150% and when in combat they inflict casualties before their opponents fight back. And they could be obliged to take a "Sacred Object" talisman of a cart of coffins for every 500 or 1000pts, (meaning they have to guard them!). Destruction of any of the coffins will trigger morale tests as normal.

They should also probably not be allowed priests. (The physical incorruptibility of vampires is daemonic -- the early church held it was analogous but opposite to the spiritual incorruptibility of saints.)

Vampires are tough to get rid of, unless you can catch them asleep. They're supposed to need beheading to kill them: and some cultures adopted beheading anyone at risk of 'revenant-like' vampirism before burial -- or at least soon after if local social norms prevent open corpse mutilation. Now that could be a suitable saving throw (modified perhaps by what weapon is being used against them?)

However in other myths, vampires are truly immortal -- they cannot die. So the only solutions are to prevent their attacks -- sticking stakes in them doesn't destroy them, it merely pins them in place in their coffin (hence the importance of it being through the heart where they won't be able to generate enough leverage to remove it.) And that's where the myth starts being troublesome to implement. Blade-type vampires are essentially just goons; they're not actually that horrific. The horror of revenant-like vampires is that they are degenerate but truly immortal and can make YOU like that too. In an age where a belief in eventual holy resurrection was widespread and firm, the idea that one could be trapped FOREVER as a dead thing and aware of it was actually the true horror.

These creatures would probably have to follow a few-but-powerful style, strong saving rolls, high resilience. They're still unlikely to have a high worth in battle which would mean they could be outnumbered. They could be represented as being overwhelmed by being staked to the ground -- leaving the models on their sides, unable to move but still able to inflict damage (at least at night)... they count as dead for any victory purposes, but they're not actually destroyed... so the battlefield eventually becomes littered with hazards. Give them the coffin talisman restriction as well (meaning they cannot simply charge around the battlefield with no regard) and they could be an extremely interesting force to use.

[dan]

Tbh I felt Buffy/Angel got it pretty spot on how Vampires worked.

[Katie]

(rolls eyes).

[dan]

[Belg]

Dec 4, 2018 11:04:53 GMT Katie said:

During the day, old-myth vampires should be human, possibly frailer. At night they can move quickly -- and have fast reflexes. They do need access to their coffins though -- this is referred to in "Dracula" [Stoker, 1897]. It's not clear whether they're *required* to sleep in them or if it's a habit or regenerative.

So they could be human with res of +1 (their frailty) during the day, suffer bad light during the day. At night, they move 150% and when in combat they inflict casualties before their opponents fight back. And they could be obliged to take a "Sacred Object" talisman of a cart of coffins for every 500 or 1000pts, (meaning they have to guard them!). Destruction of any of the coffins will trigger morale tests as normal.

They should also probably not be allowed priests. (The physical incorruptibility of vampires is daemonic -- the early church held it was analogous but opposite to the spiritual incorruptibility of saints.)

Vampires are tough to get rid of, unless you can catch them asleep. They're supposed to need beheading to kill them: and some cultures adopted beheading anyone at risk of 'revenant-like' vampirism before burial -- or at least soon after if local social norms prevent open corpse mutilation. Now that could be a suitable saving throw (modified perhaps by what weapon is being used against them?)

However in other myths, vampires are truly immortal -- they cannot die. So the only solutions are to prevent their attacks -- sticking stakes in them doesn't destroy them, it merely pins them in place in their coffin (hence the importance of it being through the heart where they won't be able to generate enough leverage to remove it.) And that's where the myth starts being troublesome to implement. Blade-type vampires are essentially just goons; they're not actually that horrific. The horror of revenant-like vampires is that they are degenerate but truly immortal and can make YOU like that too. In an age where a belief in eventual holy resurrection was widespread and firm, the idea that one could be trapped FOREVER as a dead thing and aware of it was actually the true horror.

These creatures would probably have to follow a few-but-powerful style, strong saving rolls, high resilience. They're still unlikely to have a high worth in battle which would mean they could be outnumbered. They could be represented as being overwhelmed by being staked to the ground -- leaving the models on their sides, unable to move but still able to inflict damage (at least at night)... they count as dead for any victory purposes, but they're not actually destroyed... so the battlefield eventually becomes littered with hazards. Give them the coffin talisman restriction as well (meaning they cannot simply charge around the battlefield with no regard) and they could be an extremely interesting force to use.

Thank you very much, really kind by you.
I translated your post into Italian and we are examining it "in Committee".
In the first place: we can not enter in Fantasy Warriors the Vampires as "immortals", because they would not be playable.
We will keep you informed.

[Belg]

Dec 4, 2018 15:59:59 GMT dan said:

Tbh I felt Buffy/Angel got it pretty spot on how Vampires worked.

O.K., many thanks. But Fantasy Warriors is another matter.

[Katie]

"because they would not be playable. "

Well, this was the reason behind the 'pinning them in place' thing. They'd count as defeated unless (say) someone moved into contact with them, at which point everything would be *hilarious*.

[Belg]

Hi,
for Vampires we have decided to consider them as living creatures, so they will be organized in Commands and will not need Necromancers. A Vampire Warchief may also command Undeads, to whom the rules of necromancers apply. In this case, the Vampire Warchief will also perform the functions of the Undead Warchief.
The new army list is almost ready, so I think that after the festivity of the Befana (Epiphany) we can put it on our site, for now in Italian only.


I take this opportunity to send all our good wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy 2019 to all our friends in Cambridge.

 

[Belg]

Naran Fantasy Wars battle: Sauryan (Lizardmen) vs Vampires & Undead

Hello,

here is the link to the page of our site where we put pictures of the funny battle of Naran Fantasy Wars, our expansion of FANTASY WARRIORS, played during the first two weeks of January 2019: SAURYAN against VAMPIRES & UNDEAD. It is an unusual battle for us, as it is the first time we have played a clash between these two armies. The opportunity was to test the Vampire & Undead Army, whose new army book was recently added to the Naran site.
In addition to seeing the images of the battle, you can view the pages of the two army books by clicking on their name in the header of the tables on this page:

www.naran.it/FantasyWars/Immagini/Battaglie/Sauryan_NonMorti-gennaio-2019/Battle.html

Good sight.
Sergio & Sandro
Naran Team Torino
www.naran.it/naran

[Belg]

And here are some preview images:

SAURYAN

[Belg]

VAMPIRES & UNDEAD

NON-MORTI

[Belg]

THE BATTLE