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Post by Timf on Sept 10, 2021 21:39:23 GMT
So the statement about no symptoms to turn up is OK to add
However, the rest has gone more than a tad downhill.
I left out any vaccination rule from the draft. There was a reason for that. We are dealing with individual transmission risks (small N) at the club, not public health issues and at that level, vaccines are the absolute lowest level of biological safety management and should not be used as a mandatory biological safety management method unless there is literally no other option. Recommending it to supplement to control measures would be a different matter. This is not a mass gathering where averages come into play e.g. A big nightclub, a large outside event and we have other control options to use - or we did.
Thats just one issue however as most of the important bits have been taken out or reduced - table number limits, windows and doors open for airflow, no side room use, social distancing amongst others etc.
Oh and pet hate of mine cropped up in there - the statement about gloves is garbage as it stands and if anything could increase risk as it contains no details on how gloves should be used (and we shouldnt be trying to teach people that) plus the allergy issues to consider if someone drags latex ones in. Just wear and not care anymore is NOT how you use disposable PPE. Gloves do not kill the virus, they simply provide either a disposable or cleanable layer which allows you two routes to then destroy the virus before it infects. The control method for fomite transmission is people should be cleaning their hands and not touching their face without having done that and not just throwing gloves on as suggested.
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dan
Cato Would Be Proud
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Post by dan on Sept 11, 2021 9:47:22 GMT
If we have to jump though countless hoops just for the sake of gaming in person then what's the point? We could take a board game whack it down on a table at a local pub and barely have to jump through any hoops at all if any, yet if we go to the club we have to act it's lockdown 1.0 again was the original rules suggestion. Stay on your own table, don't interact with others etc. At this point the only point of gaming in person as opposed to online is interaction in person with everyone. If the club stays in hyper lockdown then I don't see the point in reopening at all until we can game just like we used to. Or at the very least with the bare minimum of relevant restrictions.
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Post by scorpion0x17 on Sept 11, 2021 12:10:53 GMT
The proposed rules are approximately 90% of what I would ideally like to see. But also include some rules that I feel are unnecessary.
However, if the club reopens this coming Monday, I would not feel comfortable attending.
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dan
Cato Would Be Proud
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Post by dan on Sept 11, 2021 15:49:29 GMT
The proposed rules are approximately 90% of what I would ideally like to see. But also include some rules that I feel are unnecessary. However, if the club reopens this coming Monday, I would not feel comfortable attending. Suggestions are more than welcome mate. 🙂
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Post by listy on Sept 11, 2021 16:39:04 GMT
If we have to jump though countless hoops just for the sake of gaming in person then what's the point? We could take a board game whack it down on a table at a local pub and barely have to jump through any hoops at all if any, yet if we go to the club we have to act it's lockdown 1.0 again was the original rules suggestion. Stay on your own table, don't interact with others etc. At this point the only point of gaming in person as opposed to online is interaction in person with everyone. If the club stays in hyper lockdown then I don't see the point in reopening at all until we can game just like we used to. Or at the very least with the bare minimum of relevant restrictions. This was my view as well. I'm aware of the hierarchy of control measures (albeit the one I'm familiar with comes from a different government body, HSE, not the scary ones Tim plays with). That's why I put the PPE one as personal choice. All the government guidance seems to boil down to 'do as you will, just try to wash your hands more often, keep an area well ventilated, and use as much PPE as you want'. There is one we can add, which seems common in all Guidance from the government, which Tim included and I didn't. That's the maximum ventilation. My thinking for that was, it's fine now, but do you still want the rules to mandate every window and door open in 1-2 months time? That was why I didn't include it.
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Post by Timf on Sept 12, 2021 7:16:46 GMT
Our aim should be to get people playing face to face reasonably safely, not a jump straight to normal. This should be seen as a start from which we relax from.
Sorry but the list I gave was nothing like lockdown and to describe it as such is overdramatising. The comparison with pubs saying you could just go and play there ignores the fact that such places vary in their decisions quite dramatically and most importantly they have a high grade risk assessment in place, a big cleaning regime and other similar things that the member of the public doesnt see as well as (and I cannot stress this enough) a whacking great insurance policy and employee limited liability on top on enough footfall through to making nailing their contribution hard. We have none of that legal and insurance side and the cleaning had been taken out.
Some are blatantly just dropping all rules for business on the basis they feel they will be covered by insurance while ignoring other regs that have always been applicable but not talked about because the assorted Coronavirus Acts loomed largest and thats a) just nuts and b) not an option we have.
This is not the same setup as meeting round a friends house, where assorted bits of legislation dont hold (from the equality act, through assorted Healthy and safety rules to Notifiable disease rules)
My draft was in fact a little less restrictive than the base rules currently recommended by the University for being in Departments (by which I mean just coming into offices, corridors etc not labs). Its alot less restrictive than my wife’s law firm who have everybody bar two of their 30 staff in separate offices and a one person at a time shared space rule. So its less than what is happening. Also its pretty much how Scotland is operating and its a light touch with everything operating. The draft I gave was also designed as a set it up fast to get people gaming while covering all bases set of rules to get people into the club fast and we are now at a level of delay where wed be reviewing based on activity or potentially having time to do a full air and infection risk asssesment (I could nick the university system for that) which would have allowed accurate assessment and rules changes based on the room structure.
Your hierarchy of controls comes from the same place as mine - the HSE.
>> All the government guidance seems to boil down to 'do as you will, just try to wash your hands more often, keep an area well ventilated, and use as much PPE as you want'.<< ‘Do as you will’ , is a horrible boil down. Its how many see it, but it not. Government advice is now we are not mandating what you do, you need to decide for yourselves whats required. Thats hugely different to do as you will. Also the proposed draft above removed two of the three protective things in that boil down and altered the third. Their PPE line isnt do what you want, its do what is necessary. Thats a different focus. Lets not forget we are still in increasing cases and while the vaccines are keeping deaths and morbidity diwb a lot compared to last time this is still an epidemic. While hopefully infection and serious consequences are hopefully unlikely, any positive tests are still 10days off work as a minimum effect for anyone if not worse.
These rules are supposed to indeed should be expected to change so yes include everything to start with….dont dump ventilation which is probably our biggest single advantage in removing other restrictions or indeed anything just because we might remove it later. Put everything in and take it out as we can is the way to go. That also means we arent writing rules based onwho we think might show from our existing membership but are fit for purpose for anyone new who might wander in because they see we are open again.
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dan
Cato Would Be Proud
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Post by dan on Sept 12, 2021 8:11:31 GMT
The bottom line for me right now is are we opening tomorrow Y or N? Oh I forgot to get the sanitising stuff from Simon on Friday as I'd had a very long week and didn't even remember until Saturday tbh.
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Post by listy on Sept 12, 2021 8:21:25 GMT
The bottom line for me right now is are we opening tomorrow Y or N? Oh I forgot to get the sanitising stuff from Simon on Friday as I'd had a very long week and didn't even remember until Saturday tbh. In light of Tim's comments, I would venture we're a bit of a way from a consensus, so keep it online for now?
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Post by scorpion0x17 on Sept 12, 2021 12:19:26 GMT
As someone that is in a high (but not the highest) risk group (due to the meds I take for my Crohn’s), and who has spent the best part of the last 18 months either shielded or self-shielding, I am keen to get back to in-person gaming first and foremost *safely* no matter how many “hoops” I have to “jump through”.
Ideally I would like those hoops to be:
- A well ventilated gaming area (doors and windows open). - Masks (with exemptions) worn at all times (whist moving around, at a minimum). - Double vaccinated members only. - Use of hand sanitiser before starting and when returning to a game. - No eating or drinking at the table.
And, frankly, members showing each other the respect of doing *everything they can* to protect each other whilst gaming.
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dan
Cato Would Be Proud
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Post by dan on Sept 12, 2021 17:34:52 GMT
The bottom line for me right now is are we opening tomorrow Y or N? Oh I forgot to get the sanitising stuff from Simon on Friday as I'd had a very long week and didn't even remember until Saturday tbh. In light of Tim's comments, I would venture we're a bit of a way from a consensus, so keep it online for now? Okay.
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dan
Cato Would Be Proud
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Post by dan on Sept 13, 2021 12:28:09 GMT
Looks like we are indeed online again today. Maybe next week?
I think it's safest to assume we're still online going forward until we announce that we're not.
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Post by listy on Sept 13, 2021 13:13:22 GMT
Timf may I post the rules you supplied, so others may see them?
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Post by Timf on Sept 13, 2021 13:48:38 GMT
Go ahead and post them Dave - I only sent them to restricted numbers for quick assessment not because they were private or confidential.
Double vaccinated should not be a criteria we put in. Two reasons - one legal, one biological.
Used alone, its currently actually a breach of the Equality Act as Indirect Age discrimination because not everyone has yet had the chance to be fully vaccinated - thats just one reason it isnt permitted in the University. It also potentially starts to involved some quite serious confidential information handing which we are not set up for especially when dealing with exemptions and I frankly wouldnt want to touch that. Secondly (and frankly the important one from a Biological Safety Officer's perspective) is that its also lousy biological control for what is trying to be achieved. Other methods should be used for lowering the risk (especially with Delta's characteristics). We need to be concerned with stopping people getting infected by lowering potential transmission rates between people and not using vaccination as a protection which is too far downstream for that. As soon as you use 'vaccination means OK' concept its been seen that people's behaviour on other aspects changes and we are not a big enough gathering (like say Silverstone or a football match) to be able to use averages and bulk number assessments -even there they dont use vaccination alone.
One of the fundamental questions we ask when reviewing these sorts of plans whether its for the canteen here at work, or handling the SARS-COV2 is 'what would stop transmission, if a single infection source event occurs <a positive but asymptomatic person walks in or a vial is dropped>' because thats the minimum assessable event. Its how our safety assessments are done - not on a percentage chance of an infected individual being present, but on minimum assessment event. Thats why we should intervene upstream at a mandatory level.
We have several vulnerable people here at work, from inflammatory issues, lung conditions (including missing lungs) and endocrine risks and those are the methods we use to protect those people. I also have to be cautious as my mother in law has pulmonary fibrosis and requires oxygen support. Even a light covid dose WILL kill her - so for those wondering I have thought consequences through please be aware that this is the standpoint I am using as a base.
To further expand on Scotts list of wants: 1) Ventilation is possibly the single biggest thing I see as lowering transmission. Dilution is a solution and all that. If that isnt in there, you won't find me at the club until case loads are way lower. 2) Hand santisation is the next (I'll bring some in, either picking up from Simon or getting more - though not for tonight I have to say) 3) Some form of separation and group movement limitation as a viral firebreak - thats covered by such things as table numbers, social distancing away from tables, room number limits, rooms off limits and no table hopping 4) Masks - I am of the opinion that they should only be necessary (i.e. a club rule) when moving round, but that it is important at that point. The Uni has a fancy tool Ive been using on my room assessments and its interesting to see the difference in airflow figures in there from sitting/speaking to standing around even at a basic level. Thats when people start huffing and puffing etc. I would say that that would include games where standing a lot occurs e.g. a miniature wargame. Also moving around is where you can inadvertently get close to people while more heavily breathing and so masks become more important. 5) The no eating and drinking at the table I definitely also agree with - its asking for fomite transmission from our putative infected event/person and its tied into the santisation nicely.
I think I also talked in my draft about advising avoiding touching face/mouth/eyes etc - just as a break of infection pathways and so santiser at the table. I got one for each of 4 tables plus 2 pumps for entry/exit areas for example. I also talked about contactability....we want to be able to contact anyone who might be affected (or be a source) the Coronavirus acts arent requiring that any more but I feel given its a Notifiable disease we have a moral imperative there. There are so many options there so I didnt want to specify more than that - it could be phone, email, discord anything.
On top of that I'd like to add that we include the standard instructions No turning up with symptoms No turning up while waiting for the result of a test Leave if you start to feel unwell
Can anyone think of any others for that?
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Post by listy on Sept 13, 2021 14:08:22 GMT
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Post by rflowings on Sept 13, 2021 17:07:50 GMT
I support rule #2 as drafted, although now I'm REALLY going to have to find the record of my first jab. Overall sensible precautions and I look forward to seeing everyone in vivo in the near future.
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